tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post5844763017867538747..comments2024-03-27T10:36:39.504+05:30Comments on tantu-jaal: Partial exit from the graceful exitSunil Mukhihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05155823169161030174noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-83354855160238556192008-08-04T11:52:00.000+05:302008-08-04T11:52:00.000+05:30Dear SunilI have been reading blogs and discussion...Dear Sunil<BR/><BR/>I have been reading blogs and discussions on the issue of <BR/>"graceful exit or not" and interaction of institutes and universities.<BR/>I have some comments to make on this topic but before that<BR/>I would like to give a disclaimer: I have no experience<BR/>in discussion/blogging as well as do not possess detailed <BR/>understanding of what is the problem with university system<BR/>in India. This is largely because I am an institute animal and <BR/>have not spent any time in the university system. My comments<BR/>therefore may not reflect correct university perspective.<BR/><BR/>--------------------------------------------------------------<BR/><BR/>Let me start by stating my four assumptions. Among these fourth<BR/>is the most important and crucial one. I am assuming that<BR/><BR/>1) Research requires constant flow of fresh ideas which are most<BR/>likely to come from young researchers.<BR/><BR/>2) A seasoned(read senior) researcher can function in not so<BR/>friendly environment as well.<BR/><BR/>3) Teaching and research are part of same profession. Although<BR/>a good researcher need not be a good teacher and vice versa.<BR/>(I will use the word researcher and teacher interchangeably.)<BR/><BR/>4) We have used latest internet technology to network all universities and <BR/>institutes together. Funds are available to provide universal internet <BR/>connectivity. Universal access to all research journals is made available <BR/>at every research and teaching location in India. This will remove some <BR/>hurdles in movement of a researcher from institute to univ. (Certainly, there <BR/>are several other issues that may bother a researcher when moving from <BR/>institute to university, but these are beyond the scope of this note.)<BR/><BR/>-------------------------------------------------------------<BR/><BR/>Scope of the suggestion: I believe these suggestions are applicable<BR/>to pure sciences. However, my knowledge of pure sciences is quite<BR/>limited and if I am pushed to the wall, I will restrict it to theoretical<BR/>physics. In this corner of pure science stream, I am believe such<BR/>a solution is feasible, actual implementation is another matter!!<BR/><BR/>------------------------------------------------------------<BR/><BR/>I think we should turn this issue on its head. I would like to<BR/>call it "graceful entry". The idea is to not have research institutes<BR/>affiliated to any university but have every researcher in any <BR/>institute affiliated to some university. That is, in one department<BR/>of the institute some member is affiliated to Mumbai Univ. some <BR/>other to Bangalore U., someone else to Utkal U. and so on.<BR/>Conversely, every member of the university is affiliated to some<BR/>institute or other. The map is bijective for the permanent univ. <BR/>staff. Every hiring in the university follows the rules/guidelines <BR/>mentioned below. (University, however, can have contractual <BR/>(non-permanent) teaching staff, which also would be encouraged <BR/>to pursue quality improvement by doing Ph.D., preferably, at <BR/>some institute.)<BR/><BR/>How do we decide this affiliation? Well, when we hire a <BR/>researcher/teacher we hire the person for this dual affiliation.<BR/>This dual affiliation remains as long as the researcher is<BR/>pursuing her/his career, i.e., research and teaching. The <BR/>researcher cannot relinquish one affiliation. You either <BR/>have both or you have none. However, the researcher<BR/>can change university affiliation from univ. A to univ. B if both <BR/>universities agree for such a change. Universities may even <BR/>go for a swap of faculty. This may be useful if univ. A chooses <BR/>to have a stronger condensed matter theory group and univ. B <BR/>chooses, say, string theory.<BR/> <BR/>Needless to say, every research paper carries both affiliations,<BR/>i.e., institute and university.<BR/><BR/>-----------------------------------------------------------<BR/><BR/>Rules(?)/Guidelines(!)<BR/><BR/>0) Research group(s) in the institute/institutes and the relevant <BR/>department in some university form a common committee.<BR/>If the univ. department wants to hire, say, 3 faculty members, then<BR/>these three members can be hired in same institute or they may<BR/>belong to 3 different institutes. Based on the requirement,<BR/>a shortlist is made and 3 researchers are hired in the institute(s).<BR/>The choice of institute-university combination can be negotiable<BR/>for the entering researcher. However, the negotiability will be<BR/>limited. (E.g, in 2009 TIFR-Utkal U., TIFR-Jadhavpur U. are available<BR/>but TIFR-Mumbai U. is not. On the other hand IMSc-Mumbai U. <BR/>IMSc-Hyderabad U., HRI-Madras U and IOP-Pune U. are available.<BR/>Researcher can choose 5 years in TIFR and rest in Jadhavpur U. or <BR/>Utkal U. or can choose 5 years in IMSc and rest in Mumbai U. etc.)<BR/>I chose this structure to avoid giving unfair advantage to some <BR/>universities purely due to geographical proximity.<BR/><BR/><BR/>1) New recruit spends 5 years in the institute with adjunct like <BR/>position in the affiliated univ. This researcher can spend 9<BR/>months in the institute and at least 1 month and at most 3 in <BR/>the Univ. (s)he is affiliated to. Of course, 1 month in Univ. and<BR/>remaining 2 months abroad is another possibility. <BR/><BR/>2) After 5 years in the institute, the researcher can continue at<BR/>the institute for another 5 years with same terms and conditions<BR/>about univ. but with one promotion. <BR/><BR/>3) However, if researcher moves to univ. then researcher gets <BR/>double promotion. But then rules have changed, the researcher<BR/>will spend 9 months in Univ. and at least 1 month in the institute<BR/>(s)he is affiliated to. The researcher can either spend remaining <BR/>2 months abroad or in the institute (s)he is affiliated to.<BR/><BR/>4) Like the term of the US president, no researcher can spend <BR/>more than 2 five year terms as a primary member of the institute. <BR/>However, every researcher is lifetime member of some institute <BR/>or other in adjunct like capacity. Again research paper written <BR/>during Univ. days still carry affiliation to the institute.<BR/><BR/>5) No institute is affiliated to any university but every institute<BR/>or a conglomerate of several institutes themselves can be a<BR/>degree giving body. This can be followed as a starting criterion<BR/>and if universities can process theses promptly then students<BR/>from institutes can get degree from the univ. their advisor is<BR/>affiliated to.<BR/><BR/>6) Students passing out of the institute/university cannot get<BR/>a job in the same institute or university. At least one of them<BR/>should be different.<BR/><BR/>7) Existing faculty in the institute with age group 40+ is given <BR/>a choice of moving to some university or if possible to new <BR/>IITs/IISERs or they can stay in the institute till they are 60. <BR/>Sorry, no superannuation! However, superannuation is<BR/>possible if they move to univ. Conversely, univ. faculty will<BR/>become adjunct faculty of institutes. (more about this after <BR/>these guidelines.)<BR/><BR/>8) No researcher can get any accolade unless (s)he has<BR/>done at least 5 semester worth of university teaching. <BR/>(Imagine a news item, Ashoke Sen was nominated for <BR/>Bhatnagar award but was not shortlisted due to inadequate <BR/>teaching experience at university level. Clearly, this has no <BR/>effect on the status of Ashoke Sen because as a researcher <BR/>his value is determined by his work and not by awards.<BR/>While giving such awards to stalwarts improves the value<BR/>of the award, not giving them due to lack of univ. teaching<BR/>experience may do good to education and research in the<BR/>long run.)<BR/>However, promising young researchers can be brought back<BR/>to India on fellowships like Swarnajayanti. These can be <BR/>awarded to the researcher before coming to India but will<BR/>come into force only after the researcher has spent 2 years<BR/>in the institute. The fellowship will continue up to 5 years<BR/>only if the researcher moves to her/his affiliated university<BR/>after finishing 5 year terms in the institute else it is for 3 <BR/>years only.<BR/><BR/>------------------------------------------------------------<BR/><BR/>In this scenario, average profile in the institute will be around 35, <BR/>however, average age profile of permanent faculty in university <BR/>department will be higher, and would probably be around 45. <BR/>This is because of my prejudice, as stated in assumption 1.<BR/><BR/>Coming back to dual membership, it looks like permanent <BR/>membership of the institute and spending 1 month does not<BR/>seem feasible. At the moment we have fewer institutes and<BR/>several universities. One month visit of every faculty member of <BR/>every university would be impossible to handle with the present setup<BR/>at institutes. Therefore the programme could start with a few universities<BR/>in the pool and as a function of time more universities will be added<BR/>in the pool. Similarly, more organizations could be brought under<BR/>"institute" tag. One may start with a select institutes but then one<BR/>can add IITs and IISERs to this list. In fact, one could even start<BR/>the programme with IITs/IISERs on the univ. side for first few years<BR/>and then switch them over to "institute". This may appear to contradict<BR/>the guidelines but that can be remedied by "affirmative action".<BR/><BR/>Affirmative action: Any organization which switches from "University"<BR/>tag to "Institute" tag gives 5 year immunity to its entire faculty from being <BR/>moved out to "University" and after five years, all the rules/guidelines<BR/>stated above apply to this institute.<BR/><BR/>The implementation can start with "quality improvement" programme.<BR/>This programme will run for 3 years for each researcher. In this <BR/>programme the institute members in the first year spends 1 month <BR/>teaching a course of their choice in their affiliated university. Natural <BR/>time for this is during the mandatory 1 month in univ. This gradually<BR/>goes over to a semester(3 month) long course at univ. Again during<BR/>adjunctship visit. This is called quality improvement because no <BR/>assumption is made about good researcher = good teacher. Please<BR/>see assumption 3. The "quality improvement" programme runs both <BR/>ways. Univ. faculty will visit affiliated institute for 3 months in the first <BR/>year and it can gradually come down to one month at the end of<BR/>3 year quality improvement programme. Again reversed structure is <BR/>because of my prejudice: starting cutting edge research requires more <BR/>time but once you are in it, picking up threads and continuing is relatively<BR/>easy. On the other hand, giving a short course is relatively easy but<BR/>a semester long course is harder and requires much more time <BR/>investment. Also one becomes a good teacher only by experience,<BR/>VERY few among us are natural born teachers.<BR/><BR/>I also think that univ. teachers (both permanent and on contract)<BR/>be paid well so much so that people do not think of the teaching <BR/>profession as "those who can't, teach!". IIT/IIM professors earn <BR/>salary of the order of Rs 40K per month whereas the student <BR/>passing out if these places, almost irrespective of her/his actual <BR/>performance in these places, earns Rs 40K per month on day <BR/>one. Same is true at univ. level as well. Fresh thoughts and <BR/>enthusiasm in teaching profession can come only if remuneration,<BR/>if not equal; is at least competitive and attractive for young entrants.Dileep Jatkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01209444452351557417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-5949648244409109782008-07-22T17:29:00.000+05:302008-07-22T17:29:00.000+05:30Sunil: thanks for your response. Maybe I have sa...Sunil: thanks for your response. Maybe I have said enough on this subject. Let the field be open for more thoughts. Best regards, AnantAnanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974808252913561726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-92023552395626799912008-07-22T17:08:00.000+05:302008-07-22T17:08:00.000+05:30Anant: The cases you describe are relevant and imp...Anant: The cases you describe are relevant and important. But, as you yourself describe them as "anomalies", there's nothing to account for, is there!<BR/><BR/>The problem is not that it is impossible to do good research in universities, but that an unreasonably large fraction of people who are good at research get drawn in to research institutes where conditions (not only for research but for many other aspects of life) tend to be a lot better. This is true both for faculty and for Ph.D. students.<BR/><BR/>As things stand there seems little hope for change. Research institutes are not going to voluntarily give up their situation of entitlement. People in universities are - in my experience - generally bitter about the situation but, far from engaging in a discussion of what to do, seem to become more aggrieved whenever someone (e.g. yours truly) points out the existence of the situation.<BR/><BR/>What next?Sunil Mukhihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05155823169161030174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-60583202340056338842008-07-22T08:49:00.000+05:302008-07-22T08:49:00.000+05:30While the situation in our Universities may be gri...While the situation in our Universities may be grim, how does one account for the anomaly recorded, for instance, <A HREF="http://anant-observations.blogspot.com/2008/07/some-more-thoughts-on-teaching-vs.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>. Sorry for quoting myself and giving myself publicity on this space.Ananthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974808252913561726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-25864509145914432262008-07-22T00:57:00.000+05:302008-07-22T00:57:00.000+05:30Amok: The original charge against me (by Rahul B) ...Amok: The original charge against me (by Rahul B) was having a "patronising tone" towards Indian Universities. <BR/><BR/>That is a charge I deny, therefore there is no question of apologising for it. But I'm happy to say explicitly that any patronising tone towards Indian Universities that readers may have detected was sincerely unintended. <BR/><BR/>I started this entire thread looking for ways to resolve, or ameliorate, a situation that Indian universities find themselves in today, and with the recognition that they have been treated unfairly - or at least that others have been treated very much better without good enough reason.<BR/><BR/>As for being patronising toward yourself and some of the other shining wits who have shown up on my blog, I plead guilty and must confess that I've enjoyed it too! Of course I do offer my sincere apologies and promise it will happen again.Sunil Mukhihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05155823169161030174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-57840946180474233632008-07-21T22:47:00.000+05:302008-07-21T22:47:00.000+05:30Ninque: Within the present system there are extrem...Ninque: Within the present system there are extremely generous sources of funding for scientists at Universities. A visit to http://dst.gov.in will provide you some of the requisite information. Please do explore these sources when/if you get your job at Delhi University.Sunil Mukhihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05155823169161030174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-5023892626029135722008-07-21T18:38:00.000+05:302008-07-21T18:38:00.000+05:30A very interesting discussion. This blogger notes...A very interesting discussion. This blogger notes that Ninque committed a "minor offense" and apologised. Yours truly submitted a sarcasm overdose ("offensive") and apologised. Sunil's post was found to be patronising and he.... brushed it away "I may be anything else but I am not patronising". However, we are the judge of that. Sunil, join the crowd. Do I hear an apology? I am waiting.AmOKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17351322682932613136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-202744821489656712008-07-21T12:19:00.000+05:302008-07-21T12:19:00.000+05:30PS - to repeat myself again, private money is a wh...PS - to repeat myself again, private money is a whole other issue. I would entirely welcome a domestic version of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, for example. I would also be fine with a private organisation sponsoring a programme at TIFR specifically, or even the whole organisation (the way Fred Kavli did with the ITP at Santa Barbara and other places). <BR/><BR/>I suspect the reason this has not already been happening to any significant degree is, at least partly, that our industrialists aren't very impressed with our research institutes.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-33387114318488062032008-07-21T11:51:00.000+05:302008-07-21T11:51:00.000+05:30ninque: I doubt you could get funding from TIFR's ...ninque: I doubt you could get funding from TIFR's five year plan without a TIFR affiliation. That is why I said above that research institutes shouldn't have such direct access to public money, and everyone, whether in TIFR or in DU or in Trichy, should compete for the same grants (which should moreover be transferable, i.e. if you join TIFR and then move to DU, you should be able to take your money with you: the recipient of the grant money is you and not TIFR). <BR/><BR/>I suppose one could envision a scheme where research institutes acted as funding organisations for less elite people -- in fact I think this was the original idea behind IUCAA, and for a long time JNCASR acted as a de facto funding agency for IISc -- but I think that's a terrible idea too.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-57465374077503268352008-07-21T10:56:00.000+05:302008-07-21T10:56:00.000+05:30To those who think there some hidden devilry in an...To those who think there some hidden devilry in anonymous comments - While It encourages trolls, It is in fact useful. I have been a blogger off and on for 5 years, and in my experience (mainly with blogs not run by scientists) people didnt really care what name the poster posted with. In fact there was a very famous incident where two great bloggers slugged it out anonymously only to find that they had each other on their blog rolls and were the third and fifth ranked blogs in india at the time. They were Sidin vadukut and Ammani venkatesh respectively. I believe it is part of a system where ideas matter more than names. I dont see why that should change in a science blog. In fact I could argue( I would lose but I <I>could</I> argue) if papers were anonymous we wouldnt have had the whole problem with Henrik Schons falsified papers being accepted to Nature because he was from Bell labs. Though I dont want to enter anymore debates because I feel I am derailing someone elses blog discusion. If it is important, let us assume my name is, in fact, Ninque. <BR/><BR/>Now enough of misusing someone elses blog space to fight silly battles. let me restart the discussion by asking a question (I am really curious and offer no opinions!) If I were to join, let us say delhi university physics department. Could I come to the TIFR Five year plan meeting and present my ideas to get funding ? If not couldnt such a system be set up where other researchers could get funding if their ideas were as plausible?<BR/><BR/>Oh! and by the way the previous comment was deleted only to fix a typo ( I said 'loose' instead of 'lose')arjun narayananhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11638493015183690458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-18159921018466803602008-07-21T10:49:00.000+05:302008-07-21T10:49:00.000+05:30This comment has been removed by the author.arjun narayananhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11638493015183690458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-34612078949046960502008-07-20T20:38:00.000+05:302008-07-20T20:38:00.000+05:30Sunil:1. Sarcasm stings the most when it's true, a...Sunil:<BR/>1. Sarcasm stings the most when it's true, and such seems to be the case with AMOK's post that you objected to. I'm not really convinced that referees need to be anonymous when authors aren't (and double-blind doesn't work either, it's generally not hard to guess the authors.) (I'd like to know the names of the referees in my most recent experience, because they were so helpful and so obviously at the top of the profession.)<BR/><BR/>2. I didn't see the sarcasm in the long quote from Debajyoti. I think he means what he says, and many people would argue it's quite true. And I don't think it is purposeless to say so.<BR/><BR/>3. For someone like me, outside the loop, "debajyoti" is just as anonymous as "ninque".Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-36856163193485578832008-07-20T07:44:00.000+05:302008-07-20T07:44:00.000+05:30Maybe off-topic, but addresses many issues here. ...Maybe off-topic, but addresses many issues here. While one may not like sarcastic notes and anonymous comments, the blogosphere is a new and emergent-space, and clearly the rules of other modes of communication do not apply in exactly the same way. I don't think Debchou's comments were the equivalent to `maro...ko'. He was just putting a point across using some examples as to why jobs in research institutes are so sought-after and I think it is perfectly valid. I have said this before and I say it again: one cannot impose the highest standards of refereed publications on blog-comments for the simple reason that people will simply stop posting comments. Secondly, one cannot say that posting anonymous comments is equivalent to hiding. There are many in insecure positions in life who cannot give their views under their own names. That is why the anonymous comment and blogging option is available in the first place.Ananthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12974808252913561726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-82220582745851066532008-07-20T00:50:00.000+05:302008-07-20T00:50:00.000+05:30Oops -- this blogger did not at all mean to dampen...Oops -- this blogger did not at all mean to dampen the mood, negativity etc. Ninque, keep up the good work. I was simply pointing out that Rahul's principle of "Why hide behind anonymity if you think you have something useful to say?" is routinely violated in the academic peer review process. Perhaps my friendly sarcasm was too strong for which I offer my sincere ( but anonymous ) apologies.AmOKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17351322682932613136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-56746720509413000712008-07-19T20:28:00.000+05:302008-07-19T20:28:00.000+05:30Rahul B: While I generally don't favour anonymous ...Rahul B: While I generally don't favour anonymous postings, I have to say Ninque has otherwise been perfectly well-behaved (apart from the minor offence of calling me "quite a smart fellow" for which she appears to have apologised).<BR/><BR/>In contrast, I found Amok's latest comment truly offensive. Why waste the time and dampen the mood of other people with such purposeless sarcasm and negativity? It doesn't make any novel point and it's not even slightly witty.<BR/><BR/>Of course Amok cannot win prizes for this kind of sarcasm when there is Debajyoti around. Let me recall the following purposeless gem posted as part of D's comment on my Graceful Exit blog: "There are certain further advantages to being at a premier inst even after your salad days are long over. You can still claim to serve the cause of Indian Science by being on several committees. Indeed, you can be involved in reforming science education or enthusing young minds to a career in science (absolute lack of any experience in UG/PG teaching is no hindrance).<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, staying at an Inst often affords you much greater clout as far as shaping of Univ policies or making appointments go (actually much more than what you can do if you actually<BR/>teach there). Who, in his/her right mind, would throw away such perks ?"<BR/><BR/>Notice how this comment adds nothing to the discussion - it's the equivalent of chanting "maaro saale ko".Sunil Mukhihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05155823169161030174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-54303114296128278772008-07-19T08:44:00.000+05:302008-07-19T08:44:00.000+05:30Oh! Puleeze AMOK.....Oh! Puleeze AMOK.....Rahul Basuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07751088048215388592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-30365275822696234572008-07-18T18:38:00.000+05:302008-07-18T18:38:00.000+05:30This blogger totally agrees with Dr. Basu. Ninque...This blogger totally agrees with Dr. Basu. Ninque -- you need to stop being so anonymous. Come out and say what you think and don't worry about anything! It's like that in academics, don't you know yet? Just write a paper or two and you will see the referees will make personal calls to your house and help you work through any shortcomings in the paper. You will see that they will not make a single anonymous or uncharitable comment!! One day, you too can aspire to become such a referee.AmOKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17351322682932613136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-55635426654021836242008-07-18T17:13:00.000+05:302008-07-18T17:13:00.000+05:30There was an article today in Times that Stephen H...There was an article today in Times that Stephen Hawking has denied rumours of his moving to Canada... no smoke without fire... but its interesting .. the institute has atleast managed to make some news...Ramananhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11123448543333785121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-6073340897690784422008-07-18T17:04:00.000+05:302008-07-18T17:04:00.000+05:30ninque: Why hide behind anonymity if you think you...ninque: Why hide behind anonymity if you think you have something useful to say? I presume you are an academic from the tone of your comments, and anonymity is not a pleasant practice in academics or academic<BR/>discussions.Rahul Basuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07751088048215388592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-80186445391203621182008-07-18T06:24:00.000+05:302008-07-18T06:24:00.000+05:30ok! I accept all the criticism. it is all totally ...ok! I accept all the criticism. it is all totally justified! Thank god I'm anonymous ! <BR/><BR/>I didnt mean to be as rude/arrogant/judgemental as I can see I sounded. I usually try to hide that side of me. And I certainly wouldnt be put in any position to judge grants because I dont know enough(yet)! But I hope that someday I will be able to set up a lab in a university and do good science.arjun narayananhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11638493015183690458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-42022808183197964972008-07-17T17:58:00.000+05:302008-07-17T17:58:00.000+05:30Ninque,The last person who called me "quite a smar...Ninque,<BR/><BR/>The last person who called me "quite a smart fellow" was my aged auntie, who gave me a toffee and eight annas along with the compliment. I was then 5 years old so, not knowing better, I accepted the whole package. My point here is that a compliment like this needs to carry a cash (or toffee) incentive for it to be acceptable.<BR/><BR/>I have a comment on your statement "If you sit in on the TIFR planning meeting thingamajigs you shall see incredibly arcane uninteresting and -at least once- blatantly wrong physics getting a nice spin and some funding." <BR/><BR/>Suppose you were put in charge of deciding which science proposal out of many to fund (I don't know who you are, by the way, so I can't tell if you would be put in charge. But then you appear to be "quite a smart fellow" so maybe you would.) Now, let's say you were told that you would be executed, or at least made to drink Seagram's Nine Hills wine, within ten years if: (i) any project you funded turned out a dud, (ii) any project you didn't fund turned out to do well elsewhere, including elsewhere in the world. How well would you manage?<BR/><BR/>I personally would be terrified. It's easy enough to trash things as flaky or plain wrong science, but creativity is a funny thing and our own prejudices are another funny thing. I've repeatedly had people assure me that some approach to science was utter bunk only to find it turned into gold one fine day. I've often thought some people were manifest morons only to find they turned out great work one fine day. Conversely people I thought were really good scientists have turned out damp squibs.<BR/><BR/>My point here is that it's easy to be in the opposition.<BR/><BR/>For the same reason I don't wish to oppose the IISER's, centres for Nanoscience et al. In fact I've offered to teach a course next year at an IISER and (unless they turn me down, which they might) I intend to do it.<BR/><BR/>Am I saying I would never oppose anything then? Not really. But at the level of a blog discussion I feel we don't need to oppose A to promote B. Let's just concentrate on the thing we want to promote, and try to promote it.Sunil Mukhihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05155823169161030174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-8575546006104609832008-07-16T19:17:00.000+05:302008-07-16T19:17:00.000+05:30@ Rahul - I agree ! an assurance is a crappy way t...@ Rahul - I agree ! an assurance is a crappy way to spend money on people. however at TIFR in experimental groups at least this is exactly wat happens. you make a token powerpoint presentation once every five yearrs. ask for 5 crores and get one! If you sit in on te TIFR planning meeting thingamajigs you shall see incredibly arcane uninteresting and -at least once- blatantly wrong pysics getting a nice spin and some funding. I was just advocating you show this scientist ina university the same degree of critical scrutiny. or more if you please, but open up the possibility that he will get 3 crore to set up a lab(which is par for the course in some TIFR groups)<BR/><BR/>@Sunil - youre quite a smart fellow arent you! :-) I was totally taken in by your argument. But then I wondered if TIFR / Nuclear programme had more to do with our national pride, or is the new found pride mainly because the indian disapora is quite a smart selection of hardworking intelligent people. for example Jhumpa Lahiri and various spelling bee champions might have done more to shape positive western opinion than TIFR at least to common folk. lets leave that open to debate as well. <BR/><BR/>I will make two points here. - 1) In the present scenarios our school education does produce some gifted students, IT might be that this could produce more. But then we will have to question everything from primary education upwards. Let us concentrate on the fact that college detroys many of tese few minds. I have seen them come to college and loose it all under the tutelage of inadequate professors. This would have been different if just two, out of a 100 faculty members from TIFR were at the college.. Just two!!!<BR/><BR/>A second point - A while ago a large number of scientists signed a petition against some plagiarism scam etc. I remember thinking. "why do these guys care if some fellow is fooling people at that godforsaken university" but assuming you people in positions of 'responsibility' are indeed capable of such involvment. I would like to plant an idea. do you think it is correct to oppose the setting up of IISER's, Centres for NANOSCIENCE(a building in IISc that nobody knows how to use! Ive been there and they just dont know) or Centres for Biophysics and theoretical physics. and instead to force the poeple with these grand visions to execute them in a university. With the money being spent to build these places surely you could spruce up a building on the Bombay university campus and make it look as pretty as TIFR maybe even give it an MF Hussain painting or two. What are your views?arjun narayananhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11638493015183690458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-26123913961182981822008-07-16T18:25:00.000+05:302008-07-16T18:25:00.000+05:30This blogger thinks it is okay not to have a sense...This blogger thinks it is okay not to have a sense of belonging, entitlement, etc. If a term appointment makes the person looks elsewhere, why then, the Perimeter (or other) institute must make sure the next choice falls where desired by Perimeter, ie, within Perimeter or outside. In other words why not work to maintain people based on alignment with the institutional goals, rather than entitlement?<BR/><BR/>Indeed, people will be anxious to move to the Universities once this is seen as desirable goal in terms of prestige, money, type of work, etc. As the chemistry texts would say, make the chemical potential edo it for you, keeping in mind the different missions of the institutions and the strengths required from faculty in the different environments. <BR/><BR/>No ad hominem attacks intended, but consider the following: "Dr. S. Mukhi was welcomed today by Mumbai University as he joined the faculty. Dr. Mukhi expressed his happiness at being offered this position where he can contribute to the lives of more students at an earlier stage of their development as scientists, engineers and leaders of our country. Of the twenty faculty from TIFR who vied for this position, Dr. Mukhi was one of the few selected to serve. It is very satisfying, Dr. Mukhi said, to move on to the next phase of my career and leverage my research experience towards enriching real lives outside of the small set of highly specialised peers."AmOKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17351322682932613136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-82475505150776834812008-07-16T17:37:00.000+05:302008-07-16T17:37:00.000+05:30Ninque, I found your input extremely valuable. Art...Ninque, I found your input extremely valuable. Articulating a "heretical" position, however right or wrong it may be, is the way to move forward.<BR/><BR/>Let us take the heretical view that Homi Bhabha's vision was flawed and things would have been better had he not been in the picture. A useful comparison might be China, where as far as I can see there was no such visionary. Whatever brilliant Chinese scientists one has heard of, have (to my knowledge) settled and worked in the US. I believe that without the Bhabha vision, at least up to the present, a significant fraction of very good Indian scientists presently working in India would instead have settled in the developed world (barring the few who, as you say, were obliged to come back for strong personal reasons.)<BR/><BR/>I suspect we agree up to this point. The question is whether that would have been a good or a bad thing for India. <BR/><BR/>Let's leave this question basically open for debate. I will make a slightly tangential comment here. I feel your picture breaks down at the point where you suggest that the government might have funded a few scientists at Bombay U. with the same bravado (as you call it) that they funded TIFR. At least in the culture of our country, the government could not and would not have done that. <BR/><BR/>The voter (to the small extent that she thinks consciously of TIFR) agrees to fund TIFR precisely for its elite nature. Somewhere in people there is this ability to take vicarious pleasure in the success of something that SYMBOLICALLY represents the country.<BR/><BR/>Many people (outside academia) have expressed this to me and, invariably, the sub-text is something like this: "We Indians are always dealing with the West from a position of inferiority, but our best scientists can deal with them from a position of equality. Seeing this adds to our confidence as Indians. Even if we ourselves are not part of this elite, we are happy it is there."<BR/><BR/>Now before some of you jump on my back, please understand that I am quoting a view that exists out there. The view may be flawed, politically incorrect or any other thing. But it is there.<BR/><BR/>In fact if you run the clock back to Homi Bhabha's time I think this view was not that flawed. Post-independence India was a time when there was considerable doubt about how well we would ever do as a country. Symbols of success were relatively few and it's possible that TIFR/AEC played an important role in keeping spirits high.<BR/><BR/>So if Bhabha's approach needs correction today, it is not because it was wrong at its time. The rise of the IIT's and infotech companies and their impact on India's global image must have roots deep down in the "Indians are good at science" paradigm which, even if it dates from ancient times, was effectively fostered post-independence by the likes of Bhabha.<BR/><BR/>Today, things are changing rapidly and the negatives of his approach might well be outweighing the positives. From sport to infotech to business, the "existence proof" that Indians in India can be the equals in achievement of people from developed countries is no longer needed. Today we probably have an excess of symbolic elitism in India and it hides the sad state of our primary education system, health care system and university system. Visits to countries like Turkey, Iran and Thailand have convinced me that all the above indicators are in better shape there, though in fundamental science (and many other creative pursuits) they are no match for us (intriguingly, as democracies they also have a much poorer record than us!).<BR/><BR/>In short, it is possible to think about revising our system now without believing it was wrong all along. The goal would be to preserve (as R. Sid also points out), while perhaps re-distributing, the many good things we've achieved in science.Sunil Mukhihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05155823169161030174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538874342968130652.post-88815924157886911742008-07-16T11:30:00.000+05:302008-07-16T11:30:00.000+05:30ninque: I partly agree. But the reasons scientist...ninque: I partly agree. But the reasons scientists prefer to join TIFR rather than Mumbai University are (1) more money (in grants, etc); (2) less bureaucracy; (3) prestige.<BR/><BR/>Prestige takes time to build up and TIFR has done it over 50 years, so regardless of the merits of Bhabha's decision, it will not be productive to undo it. I think for the solution for the money thing is make ALL scientists, whether at research institutes or at universities, work for their money via grants (which should also be usable to augment salary). Make the playing field level as far as applications go. Make it easy for scientists to move between institutions and take their grant money with them. De-bureaucratise the usage of the grant money. <BR/><BR/>I don't think an "assurance" of money is a good thing, either at TIFR or at a university.<BR/><BR/>The above applies to public money. Of course, institutions should be free to look for private funding, in whatever form, and our domestic rich people should step up.<BR/><BR/>If, in addition, the research institutes cease to have tenure/lifetime positions (as Sunil recommends), there will be considerable incentive for scientists to move to universities, where they can get a job for life AND use their grants to continue top-notch research.<BR/><BR/>There are many caveats -- even if you have the money, do you have the facilities to set up a competitive lab at a typical universities? But over time, with vision, these things should get sorted out.Rahul Siddharthanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809667965184094636noreply@blogger.com